baseball 4

Welcome to my yearly baseball discussion.This year we'll reflect upon the greatest pitchers of all time as well as look through the greatest teams of all time.

Most of my discussions will be statistical.However as the White Sox proved in 2005, some things go above the stats.There is really no stat that measures taking the extra base by going from first to third on a single.On many occasions it takes an accurate strong throw in order to nab the runner.This is not easily done.The White Sox running applied extra pressure on the fielders to make that perfect throw.On occasion the throw may go wild enabling the baserunner to advance to home.There are occasions when it makes sense to try to get to home plate even if a runner only has a 50 percent chance of making it.

By the way there were a few missed calls in the playoffs.Offering a manager two replay timeouts somewhat like the NFL would help reverse the bad calls.If this lenghtens the game too much, maybe we can restrict how many times a manager or catcher can visit the mound to talk to the pitcher.

For our pitching study it may be good to go back to the first baseball page.Three seasons have passed since then.Pedro still ranks as the #1 pitcher of all time but his number goes down to 166 .That is still comfortably ahead of #2 Lefty Grove at 146.100 means an average pitcher in an average ballpark in an average era.Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson have held fairly steady.In fact Clemens moves up to 143,Johnson to 142.This keeps them among the top 10 pitchers.Greg Maddux drops down to 138.He still ranks around #10 of all time.Some pitchers have long careers in which they pitch well past their peak.In order not to penalize longer careers, I've taken the best years of pitchers careers in order to rank them more fairly.

Three years ago I picked the peak 7 years.This year I'll go for the peak 10 years.Three pitchers in the top 20 with 7 year careers drop out due to not having long enough careers.They are the dead ball era pitchers Addie Joss and Ed Walsh along with 60s shining star Sandy Koufax.I required 162 inning seasons to qualify for a top season.

Here are the top 20 pitchers with their rating based on their greatest 10 seasons.

1 Walter Johnson 1932 [average of 193.2 per season]

2 Pedro Martinez 1929

3 Greg Maddux 1869

4 Roger Clemens 1818

5 Randy Johnson 1758

6 Lefty Grove 1753

7 Christy Mathewson 1673

8 Cy Young 1638

9 Mordecai Brown 1595

10 Grover Alexander 1557

11 Tom Seaver 1534

12 Kevin Brown 1531

13 Bob Gibson 1512

14 Carl Hubbell 1451

15 Jim Palmer 1417

16 Steve Carlton 1402

17 Whitey Ford 1382

18 Rube Waddell 1380

19 Lefty Gomez 1377

20 Bert Blyleven 1362

By the way Nolan Ryan's best 10 year score is 1259.He was a fun pitcher but not one of the 20 greatest of all time.

As we see 4 of the top 5 starred in the last 20 years.With the advent of more relief pitching, it is quite possible that they have benefited from earlier exits when tiring.There are also many dead ball era pitchers ranking high.Due to a smaller population,there might have been a greater shortage of quality players pushing the better players to even greater statistical achievment.

In order to balance the eras a little better, I instituted a system based on ranking in the top 10 in league adjusted[for era and home ballpark]ERA.

The rankings for the top 10 in points go 20-17-15-13-11-9-8-7-6-5

The assumption being that normally there is a larger difference between #1 and #2 than #9 and #10.Also #10 in the league is still a good ranking and deserving of more than one point.I can only easily find each years top 10.

In this system, Roger Clemens has moved into #1 of all time.Randy Johnson ranks #9.Pedro Martinez is now tied for #11.The former list is on the first baseball page.

GREATEST TEAMS OF ALL TIME

This is a two parter.For part one, I took the team adjusted OPS [100 being average] and added it to the team adusted ERA[average being 100.In this system 200 would be a rating for an average team in an average era.

The 10 top AL teams of all time in this system are

1 1927 Yankees 257

2 1910 Athletics 255

3 1939 Yankees 249

4 1948 Indians 248

5 1969 Orioles 244

6 1954 Indians 241

7 1922 Browns 239

8 1929 Athletics 238

8 1931 Athletics 238

8 1937 Yankees 238

8 1995 Indians 238

8 2001 Mariners 238

The Yankees of the late 20s and early 30s were an extremely dominant hitting team.Usually they had average pitching.In 1927 ebven the pitching was great.Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig rank among the top 5 hitters of all time and were in peak form in 1927.Earle Combs at centerfield also had a tremendous season batting over 350 with 23 triples.The top pitchers ERA wise in the league were Wilcy Moore and waite Hoyt, both Yankees.The Athletics of 1929-1931 won three pennants in a row.Lefty Grove led the pitching.Jimmie Foxx, Al simmons and Mickey Cochrane had consistently great seasons.

The 1910 Athletics had the most dominant one season pitching staff.Each of the four starters had an ERA of 2.01 , which was excellent even in the dead ball era.Jack Coombs pitched 353 innings with an ERA of 1.30

.The 1939 Yankees were part of a 4 year reign as world champions.They were a very balanced team paced by Joe DiMaggio,Charlie Keller, Bill Dickey and Joe Gordon.The pitching was paced by Lefty Gomez and Red Ruffing though part time no name pitchers like Marius Russo,Bump Hadley and Oral Hildebrand pitched even better.

From 1948 through 1956, the Indians had excellent pitching stats.The 1954 edition boasted of dominant pitching by Bob Lemon, Early Wynn and Mike Garcia.Two relievers Ray Narleski and Don Mossi also had great seasons.The hitting was above average with Larry Doby, Al Rosen and batting champ Bobby Avila leading the way.The 1948 edition was a bit better balanced. The tremendous infield of 3B Ken Keltner,player-manager SS Lou Boudreau and 2B Joe Gordon paced the team.Bob Feller, Bob Lemon and Gene Bearden paced pitchers.

The 1995 Indians won 100 games in a 144 game strike shortened season.Albert Belle,Jim Thome and Manny Ramirez consistently ripped the cover off the ball.The 2001 Mariners won 116 games. Both were balanced in hitting and pitching.Bret Boone and Edgar Martinez had super seasons foir a team that couldn't hold onto Ken Griffey Jr., Randy Johnson or Alex Rodriquez.They could have used them in the playoffs.

The 1969 Orioles were a dominant team who got their butt kicked by the Mets in the World Series.They were the first and best of three dominant Orioles teams from 1969-1971.

Statistically the 1922 St. Louis Browns should have won the pennant easily. Instead the Yankees beat them out by 4 games.1922 was the year George Sisler batted 420 and Ken Williams with 39 hit more homers than Babe Ruth who missed 44 games that season..Pitching was paced by Urban Shocker, who would also pitch very effectively for the 1927 Yankees.

Some more AL tidbits.The best team statistically in the AL in 2005 by a decent margin was the Cleveland Indians.In fact they were the only team in the league with above average hitting and pitching.They finished with a 228.

In 2004 the Red Sox despite not having the best record ranked #1.2001 was a great year for the Mariners but the Athletics were not that much worse.The 2001 Yankees, the eventual AL champs were a distant third.The year 2000 had the most balanced AL.

Top 5 teams 2000-2005

1 2001 Mariners 238

2 2001 Athletics 231

3 2002 Yankees 229

4 2005 Indians 228

5 2002 Athletics 227

Worst team--2003 Tigers 162

Best hitting 2001 Mariners 119. Best pitching 2002 Athletics 126

Not statistically best pennant winners 2005 White Sox[Indians]

2002 Angels[Yankees,Red Sox]2001 Yankees[Mariners-best seasonal record]2000 Yankees[White Sox-best seasonal record]

In the future BSR will mean Best Seasonal Record.

Top 5 AL 1990s

1 1995 Indians 238

2 1998 Yankees 233

3 1994 White Sox 228

4 1996 Indians 225

5 1999 Yankees 225

Worst 1996 Tigers 166

Best Hitting 1994 Yankees 119 Best Piching 1999 Red Sox 127

Not Statistically Best Pennant Winners 1997 Indians[Yankees]1996 Yankees[ Indians]1993 Blue Jays[White Sox]1992 Blue Jays[Twins-Brewers]

Top 5 AL 1980s

1 1985 Blue Jays 232

2 1981 Yankees 231

3 1984 Tigers 226

4 1987 Blue Jays 225

5 1982 Angels 221

5 1985 Yankees 221

Worst--1988 Orioles 174

Best Hitting--1982 Brewers 221 Best Pitching---1985 Blue Jays 228

Not Statistically Best Pennant Winners 1987 Twins[Blue Jays]1982 Brewers[Angels]. The 1987 Twins may rank as the worst pennant winner of all time finishing with a score of 196.They won the World Series.

Top AL 1970s

1 1971 Orioles 234

2 1970 Orioles 230

2 1979 Orioles 230

4 1973 Orioles 229

5 1977 Royals 224

5 1977 Yankees 224

Worst--1972 Rangers 167

Best Hitting---1971 Orioles 122 Best Pitching---1979 Orioles 123

Not Statistically Best Pennant Winner 1978 Yankees[Red Sox]1975 Red Sox[Athletics BSR]1973 Athletics[Orioles].1978 should have been a close 3 way race with Yankees,Red Sox and Brewers.

Best AL 1960s

1 1969 Orioles 244

2 1969 Twins 228

3 1961 Tigers 227

4 1961 Yankees 225

5 1968 Tigers 225

Worst 1963 Senators 170

Best Hitting--1966 Orioles 120 Best Pitching 1964,1967 White Sox 226

Not Statistically Best Pennant Winner

1967 Red Sox[Twins] 1964 Yankees[White Sox]1963 Yankees[Twins]1961 Yankees[Tigers].We all love Maris and Mantle but the 1961 Yankees were simply not one of the greatest teams of all time.They had above average pitching.There were also some weak parts of the lineup.The 1963 Twins finished 15 games behind the Yankees but statistically were a better team.

Top AL 1950s

1 1954 Indians 241

2 1953 Yankees 234

3 1957 Yankees 233

4 1955 Yankees 230

5 1954 White Sox 227

Worst--1954 Athletics 159

Best Hitting--1952 Indians 120 Best Pitching 1954 Indians 132

Not Statistically Best Pennant Winner 1959 White Sox[Indians]1950 Yankees[Indians].Yankees of 1949-1953 won 5 championships in a row but were not overly dominant.Red Sox of 1949 had a better statistical year than Yankees of 1949.

The Top 10 NL Teams Of All Time are

1 1906 Cubs 262

2 1944 Cardinals 248

3 1942 Cardinals 244

3 1943 Cardinals 244

3 1907 Cubs 244

3 1909 Pirates 244

7 1902 Pirates 243

8 1905 Giants 241

8 1911 Giants 241

8 1998 Braves 241

Of course it is ridiculous to assume that all those teams from the dead ball era are better than any of the more recent teams. They probably benefited from lesser competition.A quick review of the teams gives us the 116-36 1906 Cubs of Tinker-Evans-Chance fame.The pitching was outrageous led by Mordecai Brown and his 1.04 ERA which was phenomenal even in the dead ball era.The Cubs pitching for the season statistically would equal a team of Bob Gibsons in their prime.Also featured are the Honus Wagner led Pirates of 1902 and 1909.The 1902 team won the pennant by 27.5 games.Ginger Beaumont and Fred Clarke played the outfield along with Wagner making it possibly the most dominant hitting outfield of all time[by era].In 1909 Wagner was even better at shortstop though the pitching was what made them dominant.Howie Camnitz and Babe Adams[in a more part time role]were the best pitchers of the consistently great staff.The 1942-1944 Cardinals benefited from weak competition during the war years.Stan Musial was the man.The pitching is what made them really great.Mort Cooper and Harry Brecheen led a consistently great staff.In 1944 a pitcher by the name of Red Munger posted a 1.34 ERA in 121 innings.In 1905 Christy Mathewson was ridiculous with a 1.28 ERA.Hitting was led by Mike Donlin.Mathewson was still dominant in 1911.Finally a team from thelast 60 years--the 1998 Braves led by Andreas Galarraga and Chipper Jones in hitting.However it was the dominant staff led by amazing seasons by Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine which truly carried them.

NL Best 2000-2005

1 2005 Cardinals 231

1 2002 Braves 231

3 2004 Cardinals 228

4 2000 Giants 224

5 2003 Braves 223

Worst---2001 Pirates, 2004 Diamondbacks 173

Best Hitting 2000 Giants 123 Best Pitching 2002 Braves 131

Not Statistically Best Pennant Winner

2005 Astros[Cardinals BSR] 2003 Marlins[Braves BSR]2002 Giants[Braves]2000 Mets[Giants BSR]

The expanded playoff system enables alot of teams not as dominant in the season to win the pennant by playing well in short playoffs.

Best NL 1990s

1 1998 Braves 241

2 1997 Braves 236

3 1998 Astros 233

4 1993 Braves 231

5 1999 Diamondbacks 229

Worst 1998 Marlins 170

Best Hitting 1998 Astros 117 Best Pitching 1998 Braves 130

Not Statistically Best Pennant Winner

1999 Braves[Diamondbacks]1998 Padres[Braves]1997 Marlins[Braves]1993 Phillies[Braves]1991 Braves[Dodgers].To state the obvious Braves had consistently dominant pitching staff from 1992-1999.

Best NL 1980s

1 1986 Mets 230

2 1988 Mets 227

3 1985 Dodgers 224

4 1981 Astros 223

5 1985 Cardinals 221

Worst 1988 Braves 177

Best Hitting 1988 Mets 117 Best Pitching 1981 Astros 123

Not Statistically Best Pennant Winners

1989 Giants[Cubs BSR]1988 Dodgers[Mets BSR]1987 Cardinals[Mets]1985 Cardinals[Dodgers]1984 Padres{Phillies]1983 Phillies[Dodgers]1982 Cardinals{Dodgers]1981 Dodgers{Astros]

The 1987 Cardinals and 1984 Padres scored 200 making them an average team.However they won the pennant.Look at those Cardinals stealing 3 pennants in the 1980s.Their superior fielding and base running paced them.

Best NL 1970s

1 1974 Dodgers 233

2 1976 Reds 229

3 1975 Pirates 227

3 1977 Dodgers 227

3 1978 Dodgers 227

Worst 1974 Padres 163

Best Hitting 1976 Reds 129 Best Pitching 1974 Braves 123

Not Statistically Best Pennant Winner

1979 Pirates[Expos]1975 Reds[Pirates]1973 Mets[ Dodgers]1972 Reds{Pirates]

The 1973 Mets at 199 rank as the worst NL pennant winner ever.

Best NL 1960s

1 1966 Dodgers 226

2 1965 Pirates 220

3 1966 Pirates 219

3 1965 Reds 219

3 1962 Giants 219

Worst 1963 Mets 173

Best Hitting 1965 Reds 122 Best Pitching 1966 Dodgers 125

Not Statistically Best Pennant Winners

1969 Mets{Cubs]1965 Dodgers{Pirates] 1964 Cardinals[Reds]1963 Dodgers[Cardinals]

Outside of the Cubs, Mets and Astros,usually a very balanced league.Statistically pennant races should have been alot closer than they actually were.From 1961-1965 5-7 teams were bunched up statistically with anyone of them possibly deserving a pennant.

NL Best 1950s

1 1954 Giants 233

2 1953 Dodgers 228

3 1955 Dodgers 227

3 1951 Giants 227

5 1956 Braves 224

Worst 1952 Pirates 165

Best Hitting 1953 Dodgers 125 Best Pitching 1957 Dodgers 124

Not Statistically Best Pennant Winners

1959 Dodgers[ Giants]1956 Dodgers[Braves]1952 Dodgers[Phillies]

For whatever reasons the Dodgers won 5 NL pennants in the 1950s and 1960s in which they were not the best team statistically.Chuck Dressen managed in 1952 and Walter Alston in the other 4.Even their second place performances of 1961 and 1962 far exceeded their expectations statistically.

Using another study of best teams which also includes fielding and base running, an estimate of how many games a team should have won is given.The following teams could have been expected to win over 100 games in a season.For 154 game seasons, I added 5 wins to roughly equal a great team in a 162 game season.These are the 1905 Giants 104,1906 Cubs 106,1909 Pirates 101,1909 Athletics 101,1910 Athletics 106,1912 Red Sox 101,1914 Athletics 101,1915 Red Sox 100,1920 Indians 101,1922 Browns 105,1927 Yankees 116,1928 Athletics 100,1929 Athletics 102,1931 Yankees 103,1932 Athletics 103,1932 Yankees 103,1936 Yankees 106,1937 Yankees 103,1939 Yankees 112,1941 Dodgers 101,1942 Cardinals 103,1943 Cardinals 103,1944 Cardinals 109,1948 Indians 108,1953 Dodgers 101,1953 Yankees 102, 1954 Indians 103,1969 Orioles 107,1970 Orioles 100,1971 Orioles 102,1973 Orioles 101,1974 Dodgers 101,1976 Reds 103,1995 Indians 104,1997 Braves 101,1998 Yankees 106, 1998 Braves 107,1998 Astros 106,1999 Diamondbacks 101,2000 Giants 102.My resources on this topic only go through 2000.The 1995 Indians, ho only played a 144 game season were given a 10 win adjusment.

If one compares these with lists of greatest all time teams and best teams of the decade, one sees many of the same teams listed.

As far as pennant races go,this system by adding fielding and stolen bases rates the 1975 Reds, 1978 Yankees ,1961 Yankees,1959 White Sox and 1950 Yankees were deserved pennant winners.

The following teams won more than 10 games more than expected statistically [1950-2000]1997 Giants,1988 Athletics,1988 Dodgers,1987 Cardinals,1984 Cubs,1984 Padres,1983 White Sox,1982 Braves,1971 Athletics,1969 Mets,1967 Cardinals,1965 Twins,1965 Dodgers,1963 Yankees,1963 Dodgers,1961 Yankees,1959 white Sox,1954 Indians,1954 Giants,1954 Dodgers.

The following teams under perfomed buy more than 10 games.1993 Mets,1991 Reds,1986 Pirates,1982 Reds,1974 Angels,1969 Expos,1965 Red Sox,1962 Senators,1962 Mets,1954 Orioles,1952

2009 Comments

Many of my comments are similar to before. There were many blown calls in the post season. I propose a system in which instead of having a second base umpire, we would have a replay umpire on the field to over-rule all the bad calls.Nobody goes to a game to watch the umpires.This is 2009 with HDTV.Get the calls right.I would have the replay ump available for everything except balls and strikes.There are so many obvious calls picked up on TV in 30 seconds, that he could make a quick decision using the feeds from both participating teams.If we want to have managers argue for disputed calls, that's fine with me.They would easily get word if a TV feed is in their favor.This would actually save arguing time as the right call would be made within a minute.

The World Series starts too late.I propose a 7 game Series starting on Friday.That way east coast kids could stay up and watch the weekend games which should start no later than 8PM ET.Have the pre-game, national anthem and whatever earlier.The three week night games should start at no later than 730PM ET.People on the West Coast could listen to the beginning of the game on radio switching to TV when they arrive home.We have to get kids in the habit of watching the Series or they might not watch it when rthey get older.They are future fans.One cannot expect a normal 9-5 worker to ever stay up past 1130 to watch a game.In fact many folks work earlier.

Of course I'm for any type of salary cap or revenue sharing.It is ridiculous that some teams can't afford to pay established players.

Now more history--the Hall Of Fame.Unlike the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame which does not have measurable music statistics, baseball is very statified[new word]My main sources of infio are Baseball Hall Of Fame or Hall Of Shame by Robert W. Cohen and the baseball reference web site.

Through 2008, there were 21 First Baseman elected to the HOF.

I use the ten best years of a players career.Those with longer careers benefit by having more years to choose from and are not penalized for playing past their prime.Players are required to play 10 years to be in the HOF.Ten is also an easy number to work with mathematically.

Using adjusted OPS to measure their 10 best years of hitting stats, we get

Cap Anson 1876-1897 166

Dan Brouthers 1879-1896 186

Roger Connor 1880-1897 170

Jake Beckley 1888-1907 136

Frank Chance 1898-1914 136

Ben Taylor Negro League 1910-1929

George Sisler 1915-1930 143

George Kelly 1915-1930 113

Jim Bottomley 1922-1937 136

Lou Gehrig 1923-1939 192

Bill Terry 1923-1936 138

Mule Suttles Negro League 1923-1944

Jimmie Foxx 1925-1945 178

Hank Greenberg 1933-1941, 1945-1947 162

Buck Leonard Negro League 1933-1950

Johnny Mize 1936-1942, 1946-1953 168

Harmon Killebrew 1954-1975 155

Orlando Cepeda 1958-1974 142

Willie McCovey 1959-1980 168

Tony Perez 1964-1986 133

Eddie Murray 1977-1997 148

We have no way of measuring Negro League players.

As for everyone else, I would say 150 is a bonifide HOF with 135-150 being borderline.The borderlines in my opinion have to have something above the OPS that would get them in.

George Kelly was one of those Veterans Committee players.He was a good player that hit for little power.As first base is usually a hitter's position, he simply does not belong.He played in a hitters era and was elected in 1973 in which we were coming out of a pitcher's era.It seemed that anyone who consistently batted at or over 300 was considered great no matter what the league average was.

Frank Chance was a platoon player for much of his career.He only played 6 full seasons on top of lots of part time ones.He was elected into the HOF along with Tinker and Evans during the same year.He benefited by being part of a poem.

George Sisler had some great years and had a great fielding reputation.

Out of this list, I toss out Frank Chance, George Kelly , Jim Bottomley and Tony Perez[very good but not excellent.]He benefited RBI wise by having great teammmates.I am lukewarm on Jake Beckley, Bill Terry and Orlando Cepeda.

Now to show stats of 1B non HOFs

Dolph Camilli 1933-1945 139

Gil Hodges 1947-1963 130

Joe Adcock 1950-1966 132

Norm Cash 1959-1974 144

Keith Hernandez 1975-1990 138

Don Mattingly 1983-1995 132

Fred McGriff 1987-2004 149

Frank Thomas 1990-2008 177

Jim Thome 1991-2009 160

Todd Helton 1998--ACT 145

Carlos Delgado 1994--ACT 147

Rafael Palmeiro 1987-2005 144

Mark McGwire 1987-2001 179

David Ortiz 1998--ACT 133

Albert Pujols 2001--ACT 172

By the numbers top 5

Gehrig 192 Brouthers 186 McGwire 179 Foxx 178 Thomas 177. Pujols is 6th at 172 but numbers should go up.

I'll let those anti-steroid folks make their own judgements.

Pujols has played only nine years but in my opinion already qualifies.Gil Hodges had a great fielding reputation.Keith Hernandez and Don Mattingly were also superior glove men.The gold glove total is 11 for Hernanez, 9 for Mattingly.I understand that it is subjective on part of the baseball writers but it does appear that these were superior glovesman.1B is not usually considered a fielder's position but we can consider two of the best as both had very good hitting stats.Norm Cash admits to using a corked bat during 1961, easily his best season.David Ortiz who is more DH than 1B in my opinion simply does not have good enough hitting stats to qualify.Mark McGwire obviously has been taking psychedelic drugs if he doesn't believe that steroids improved his hitting.By looking at his stats, he started taking them before the 1995 season.Suddenly he went from hitting homers every 12 ABs to every 8ABs which is better than anyone in history in their best season.

I add Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, Keith Hernandez, and Albert Pujols to the mix.I would say Pujols ranks behind Lou Gehrig as the best 1B of all time.

Bid McPhee 1882-1899 113

Frank Grant 1886-1903 Negro Leagues

Napoleon Lajoie 1896-1916 177

Johnny Evers 1902-1917 112

Eddie Collins 1906-1930 155

Rogers Hornsby 1915-1937 192

Frankie Frisch 1919-1937 130

Charlie Gehringer 1924-1942 135

Tony Lazzeri 1926-1939 126

Billy Herman 1931-1943, 1946-1947 119

Bobby Doerr 1937-1944, 1946-1951 124

Joe Gordon 1938-1943, 1946-1950 122

Red Schoendienst 1945-1963 100

Jackie Robinson 1947-1956 132

Nellie Fox 1947-1965 104

Bill Mazeroski 1956-1972 90

Joe Morgan 1963-1984 149

Rod Carew 1967-1985 146

Paul Molitor 1978-1998 137

Ryne Sandberg 1981-1997 126

2B is more of a fielder's position.I'd say a 120 or better OPs guarantees a place in Cooperstown.

No Johnny Evers for me.He is clearly in because he is part of a poem.I'll take out Bid McPhee as he does not display superior stats in the 19th century.

Red Schoendienst, Nellie Fox and Bill Mazeroski are all considered superior fielders.Maz won 8 gold gloves while much of the gold glove era[1957 and later]post dates the other two.I'll boot out all three.Keep in mind that Bobby Doerr and Joe Gordon were also excellent fielders and much more productive at the plate.In addition both lost peak years fighting for their country.Jackie Robinson was 'blacked out' of some of his early peak years for well known unfortunate reasons.

2B non HOF

Bobby Grich 1970-1986 134

Roberto Alomar 1988-2004 128

Jeff Kent 1992-2008 132

Craig Biggio 1988-2007 127

I'll add all four.Grich is one great unknown potential HOFer.He won 4 gold gloves.

By the numbers top 5 Hornsby 192 Lajoie 177 Collins 155 Morgan 149 Carew 146

Jimmy Collins 1895-1908 120

Frank Baker 1908-1914, 1916-1922 139

Judy Johnson 1919-1938 Negro League

Pie Traynor 1920-1935 113

Jud Wilson 1922-1945 Negro League

Fred Lindstrom 1924-1936 111

George Kell 1943-1957 119

Eddie Mathews 1952-1968 158

Brooks Robinson 1955-1977 120

Mike Schmidt 1972-1989 161

George Brett 1973-1993 156

Wade Boggs 1982-1999 147

Pie Traynor was considered a great fielder and got many MVP votes in his time.I'm giving him the benefit of tremendous doubt.

Otherwise only Frank Baker and Jimmy Collins make it from pre-1950.

I will eliminate Fred Lindstrom and George Kell.

3B non HOF

Stan Hack 1932-1947 127

Bill Madlock 1973-1987 132

Ron Santo 1960-1974 138

Ken Boyer 1955-1969 122

Richie Allen 1963-1977 165

Graig Nettles 1968-1988 119

Buddy Bell 1972-1989 120

Edgar Martinez 1987-2004 159

Scott Rolen 1996-2009 131

Chipper Jones 1994-2009 155

Alex Rodriquez 1994-2009 157

Pete Rose 1963-1986 137

By the numbers top 5 Allen 165 Schmidt 161 Martinez 159 Mathews 158 A-Rod 157.Chipper Jones is 6th at 155.

3B was a fielders position .It has evolved as of recent years. I put Pete Rose at 3B as he played more games there than anywhere else.

Richie Allen played other positions but if we include him here he becomes the best hitting 3B of all time[even over Schmidt]Of course, Richie was a negative character who easily lived up to his White Sox name.Edgar Martinez was primarily a DH.His hitting stats are just great.Buddy Bell beats Nettles in gold gloves 5-2.Ron Santo and Ken Boyer also have 5 gold gloves.Scott Rolen has 7.

Chipper Jones has been one great consistent hard nosed ballplayer.He ranks as one of the 5 best 3B of all time along with Schmidt, Brett,Mathews and A-Rod[steroids anyone].A-Rod had to be put here or at shortstop.He is a superior player either way.

I'll defintely add in Santo, Martinez, Jones, A-Rod, Rolen and Rose. All of the rest are at least marginally qualified.

George Davis 1890-1909 132

Hughie Jennings 1891-1903 117

Bobby Wallace 1894-1918 118

Honus Wagner 1897-1917 175

Joe Tinker 1902-1916 100

John Henry Lloyd 1905-1932 Negro Leagues

Rabbit Maranville 1912-1935 94

Dave Bancroft 1915-1930 110

Joe Sewell 1920-1933 113

Travis Jackson 1922-1936 109

Willie Wells 1924-1948 Negro Leagues

Joe Cronin 1926-1945 126

Luke Appling 1930-1950 123

Arky Vaughn 1932-1943, 1947-1948 142

Lou Boudreau 1938-1952 135

Pee Wee Reese 1940-1942, 1946-1958 118

Phil Rizzuto 1941-1942, 1946-1958 95

Ernie Banks 1953-1971 135

Luis Aparicio 1956-1973 84

Robin Yount 1974-1992 133

Ozzie Smith 1978-1996 98

Cal Ripken Jr.- 1981-2001 131

Look at Honus Wagner's number.One can see just how superior he was to any other shortstop of his era.In addition, he was considered a great fielder.

His baseball card is valuable because it was put out my a cigar company.Honus, who hated smoking had them stop putting out his card.Only a few of them were ever released.He is easily the best shortstop of all time [adjusting for era]and along with Babe Ruth would be a great first pick if one were to conduct a draft of everyone in baseball history.

Now we have the Fielding discussion.Joe Tinker was an average hitter who happened to be included in a poem.Unless given evidence of great fielding exploits, I'd deductTinker, Maranville, Sewell, Bancroft and Jackson.I do see some amazing MVP support for these players.Maranville had an extremely poor hitting season of a 218BA with no homers in the midst of a hitter's era and still finished in the top 20.He was out of baseball a year later.

Rizzuto, Aparicio and especially Ozzie Smith were considered to be great fielders.Ozzie won 13 straight gold gloves, Aparicio won 9 though not consecutively and Rizzuto pre-dated the gold gloves.A case could be made for all three but it does lack supportable stats.

Banks was a poor fielder who moved to 1B at age 30.His best hitting seasons were while he played shortstop.

SS non HOF

Bert Campaneris 1964-1983 97

Vern Stephens 1941-1955 124

Barry Larkin 1986-2004 133

Omar Vizquel 1989-2009 95

Derek Jeter 1995-2009 128

By the numbers top 5 Wagner 175 Vaughn 142 Boudreau 135 Banks 135 Yount 133

I have to add Larkin and Jeter.I'll also add Stephens due to superior hitting.Vizquel won 10 gold gloves.If I allow Ozzie and Aparicio, I have to put him in as well.The Yankees draw3.5- 4 million a year to watch them play.They never drew 2 million when Mickey Mantle played in all those World Series.Doing informal research, I'd say Jeter is worth at least a half a million fans a year plus increased radio and TV interest.He is almost solely responsible fior the amazing increase of female Yankees fans.He earns his salary.

Buck Ewing 1880-1897 144

Roger Bresnahan 1900-1915 126

Louis Santop 1910-1926 Negro Leagues

Ray Schalk 1912-1929 89

Biz Mackey 1920-1947 Negro Leagues

Gabby Hartnett 1922-1941 134

Mickey Cochrane 1925-1937 128

Bill Dickey 1928-1943, 1946 132

Rick Ferrell 1929-1947 101

Josh Gibson 1930-1946 Negro Leagues

Ernie Lombardi 1931-1947 135

Yogi Berra 1946-1963 131

Roy Campanella 1948-1957 124

Johnny Bench 1967-1983 135

Carlton Fisk 1969-1993 132

Gary Carter 1974-1992 127

Lets knock out Ray Schalk and Ric Ferell.It is unfortunate that perhaps the greatest catcher of all time[Josh Gibson]never played a major league game.Roy Campanella was blacked out of half his career.

C non HOF

Joe Torre 1961-1977 136

Ted Simmons 1968-1988 132

Thurman Munson 1969-1979 116

Wally Schang 1913-1931 127

Mike Piazza 1992-2007 157

Ivan Rodriquez 1991-2009 124

Joe Torre also played 3B where he would also easily qualify.He even won one gold glove as catcher.Offensively, Ted Simmons was as good as contemporaries Johnny Bench and Carlton Fisk.He easily belongs.Wally Schang played for many pennant winners with the Red Sox and Yankees.From the info I got, he belongs.Unfortunately Munson's career was cut short.I'd say he just misses out.I-Rod is a superior catcher who easily belongs.Piazza is good enough offensively to qualify.\

By the numbers top 5 Piazza 157 Ewing 144 Torre 136 Bench 135 Lombardi 135

Jim O'Rourke 1873-1893 154

Ed Delahanty 1888-1903 172

Jesse Burkett 1890-1905 148

Joe Kelley 1891-1908 141

Fred Clarke 1894-1911 146

Pete Hill 1899-1925 Negro Leagues

Zack Wheat 1909-1927 140

Goose Goslin 1921-1938 140

Heine Manush 1923-1939 129

Al Simmons 1923-1941, 1943-1944 146

Chick Hafey 1924-1935, 1937 133

Joe Medwick 1932-1948 141

Ted Williams 1939-1942, 1946-1960 207

Stan Musial 1941-1944, 1946-1963 177

Monte Irvin 1938-1942, 1945-1956 Negro Leagues

Ralph Kiner 1946-1955 149

Billy Williams 1959-1976 143

Carl Yastrzemski 1961-1983 151

Lou Brock 1961-1979 118

Willie Stargell 1962-1982 161

Jim Rice 1974-1989 136

Rickey Henderson 1979-2003 149

Got to up the offensive numbers here.Anyone under 140 got to leave unless there are extenuating circumstances.Lou Brock due to WS play and SB may have a case.

Otherwise bye to Manush, Hafey and Rice with Wheat, Goslin, Medwick and Billy Williams barely making the cut.

Ted Williams missed 5 of his prime years due to fighting for his country

As we are adding OBP to SLUg PCT, some studies have ranked OBP as being as much as three times as important.Rickey Henderson's numbers would go up greatly under this system.Add all those SB and you have a very superior player.

LF non HOF

Bob Johnson 1933-1945 142

Tim Raines 1979-2002 138

Albert Belle 1989-2000 143

Juan Gonzalez 1989-2005 139

Manny Ramirez 1993-2009 165

Ichiro Suzuki 2001-2009 118

Joe Jackson 1908-1920 170

Barry Bonds 1986-2007 218

Bob Johnson played during all the war years and benefited greatly from inferior competition.

The numbers don't quite work out for most of this crowd.Belle has a 143 but was not a great clubhouse guy.Juan Gonzalez is suspected of steroid use and is border line at best.Sorry Suzuki.His downfall besides lack of power is that he doesn't walk often.If he walked more those OBPs would be a lot better.

This leaves us with 3 characters who belong based on play.Manny is a great hitter,He can't field and loses concentration.He also has steroid issues.

Joe Jackson was great.It is quite possible he did not understand the concept of trying to lose the 1919 World Series.He did bat 375 during it.His numbers might be even better if he didn't get kicked out so early.

Bonds put in the 4 greatest hitting seasons ever.He won 7 MVPS and should have won 2 more.I won't go into how many times Ted Williams was robbed.

Bonds was the best hitter in the NL between 1990-1993 .I'd say after being injured in 1999, he stepped it up with the steroids.McGwire and Sosa hitting 60HR a year probably influenced him.

Based on baseball playing, all three belong.Bonds even pre-steroids is great.I'd like to see Joe Jackson go. in first.

By the numbers Top 5 Bonds 218 Williams 207 Musial 177 Delahanty 172 Jackson 170

Hugh Duffy 188-1901,1904-1905 128

Billy Hamilton 1888-1901 148

Ty Cobb 1905-1928 193

Tris Speaker 1907-1928 173

Max Carey 1910-1929 118

Cristobal Torriente 1913-1928 Negro Leagues

Edd Roush 1913-1929, 1931 141

Oscar Charleston 1915-1942 Negro Leagues

Cool Papa Bell 1922-1946 Negro Leagues

Turkey Stearns 1923-1940 Negro Leagues

Hack Wilson 1923-1934 144

Earle Combs 1924-1935 126

Lloyd Waner 1927-1942, 1944-1945 106

Earl Averill 1929-1941 133

Joe DiMaggio 1936-1942, 1946-1951 161

Willard Brown 1936-1944, 1947-1950 Negro Leagues

Larry Doby 1947-1959 136

Duke Snider 1947-1964 140

Richie Ashburn 1948-1962 120

Mickey Mantle 1951-1968 187

Willie Mays 1951-1973 170

Kirby Puckett 1984-1995 131

I'd use 140 as a cutoff for definite inclusion.

Lloyd Waner has obviously been included because of his HOF brother Paul.He clearly does not belong.Max Carey stole lots of bases and is more deserving than Waner but no way.Earl Averill was a very good but not great player.Before his inclusion via the Veterans committee, he was only able to get approval of 5.3 percent of the HOF voters in his best showing.Larry Doby was a great fielder and was blacked out of a couple of early seasons.As the first black American League player, he definitely belongs.Richie Ashburn only played in 5 All Star games.That is indication that he was not considered among the elite centerfielders during his career.He was an excellent fielder but his lack of power destroys him.Kirby was kind of a baseball icon during his career.By his stats we could see he was a bit over-rated.I'd keep him in but it is a close call.

Dimaggio lost three of his prime years due to WW2.Otherwise his number would probably be even higher.Another study showed him to be the HOFer most adversely affected by his home stadium.

CF non HOF

Vada Pinson 1958-1975 121

Ken Griffey Jr. 1989-2009 153

Griffey yes, Pinson no but for a few years he was great.

By the numbers Top 5 Cobb 193 Mantle 187 Speaker 173 Mays 170 Dimaggio 161

King Kelly 1878-1893 155

Tommy McCarthy 1884-1896 102

Sam Thompson 1885-1898 150

Willie Keeler 1892-1910 137

Elmer Flick 1898-1910 151

Sam Crawford 1899-1917 157

Harry Hooper 1909-1925 124

Harry Heilmann 1914-1930, 1932 160

Babe Ruth 1914-1935 226

Sam Rice 1915-1934 118

Ross Youngs 1917-1926 130

Kiki Cuyler 1921-1938 133

Martin Dihigo 1923-1945 Negro Leagues

Paul Waner 1926-1945 144

Mel Ott 1926-1947 168

Chuck Klein 1928-1944 144

Enos Slaughter 1938-1942, 1946-1959 133

Al Kaline 1953-1974 152

Hank Aaron 1954-1976 173

Roberto Clemente 1955-1972 151

Frank Robinson 1956-1976 168

Reggie Jackson 1967-1987 158

Dave Winfield 1973-1995 145

Tony Gwynn 1982-2001 143

Who the heck is Tom McCarthy.Throw him out.

No need for Harry Hooper.Sam Rice, Ross Youngs and Kiki Cuyler played in an extreme hitter's era.When numbers are adjusted for era, they are not that good.Enos Slaughter's numbers were getting better until WW2 took three of his prime years.With this consideration, I'd say this borderline candidate deserves to stay

RF non HOF

Bobby Veach 1912-1925 130

Bob Elliott 1939-1953 128

Tony Oliva 1962-1976 134

Dwight Evans 1972-1991 139

Vladimir Guerro 1996-2009 139

Larry Walker 1989-2005 149

Magglio Ordonez 1997-2009 130

Based on very good offensive performance and excessively strong arms and defense, I'd put Dwight Evans and Vladimir Guerro in.Both Evans and Guerro are also affected numerically wise by the DH rule.If one put a pitcher in the DHs place the average hitter's stats would go down leading to an increase in the adjusted stats of both Evans and Guerro.Larry Walker definitely belongs.These numbers are adjusted for Coors Field and the 90s offensive era.The guy was great and also a had a great arm.

By the numbers Top 5 Ruth 226 Aaron 173 Robinson 168 Ott 168 Heilmann 160

P----Starters

Pud Galvin 1875-1892 117

Mickey Welch 1880-1892 114

Tim Keefe 1880-1893 137

Charley Radbourne 1880-1891 120

John Clarkson 1882-1894 134

Amos Rusie 1889-1898 129

Kid Nichols 1890-1901, 1904-1906 152

Cy Young 1890-1911 164

Vic Willis 1898-1910 127

Joe McGinnity 1899-1908 120

Jack Chesbro 1899-1909 110

Rube Waddell 1899-1910 140

Christy Mathewson 1900-1916 167

Eddie Plank 1901-1917 131

Addie Joss 1902-1910 142

Chief Bender 1903-1917 127

Mordecai Brown 1903-1916 160

Ed Walsh 1904-1917 146

Walter Johnson 1907-1927 193

Rube Marquard 1908-1925 116

Jose Mendez 1908-1926 Negro League

Joe Williams 1910-1932 Negro League

Grover C Alexander 1911-1930 156

Eppa Rixey 1912-1933 130

Herb Pennock 1912-1934 121

Red Faber 1914-1933 128

Dazzy Vance 1922-1935 146

Stan Coveleski 1916-1928 137

Burleigh Grimes 1916-1934 125

Waite Hoyt 1918-1938 124

Jesse Haines 1920-1937 108

Bullet Rogan 1920-1938 Negro League

Andy Cooper 1920-1941 Negro League

Bill Foster 1923-1938 Negro League

Ted Lyons 1923-1942, 1946 142

Red Ruffing 1924-1942, 1945-1947 126

Lefty Grove 1925-1941 175

Satchel Paige 1926-1953 Negro League

Carl Hubbell 1928-1943 145

Lefty Gomez 1930-1943 134

Ray Brown 1930-1948 Negro League

Dizzy Dean 1932-1941 130

Hilton Smith 1933-1948 Negro League

Leon Day 1935-1949 Negro League

Bob Feller 1936-1941, 1945-1956 129

Hal Newhouser 1939-1955 142

Early Wynn 1941-1944, 1946-1963 125

Bob Lemon 1946-1958 122

Warren Spahn 1946-1965 135

Robin Roberts 1948-1966 131

Whitey Ford 1950, 1953-1968 138

Jim Bunning 1955-1971 130

Sandy Koufax 1955-1966 131

Don Drysdale 1956-1969 128

Bob Gibson 1959-1975 151

Juan Marichal 1960-1975 136

Gaylord Perry 1962-1983 133

Phil Niekro 1964-1987 135

Ferguson Jenkins 1965-1983 126

Catfish Hunter 1965-1979 115

Jim Palmer 1965-1984 142

Steve Carlton 1965-1988 140

Don Sutton 1966-1988 129

Nolan Ryan 1966-1993 126

Tom Seaver 1967-1986 153

Long list.I'd say 130 is the borderline point.THe pre-1900 pitchers are their own breed as they pitched triple the required innings[162]for what I considered a full season.In fact they were pitching three seasons in one.These pitchers tended to have short careers at least partially due to sore arms.These pitchers top seasons were very good but many could not muster ten good ones.Galvin, Welch and Radbourne[60 wins one season] are not much better than average considering their ten best seasons.As I have limited knowledge of this era, I'll give everyone a pass.One should consider how much better Cy Young and Kid Nichols were above the rest.

As for others I'll give arguments for or against some of the under 130 pitchers as well as other added comments.For all pitchers that did not pitch ten full seasons, I just used the lifetime number.Addie Joss, Dizzy Dean and Sandy Koufax come to mind.

Chief Bender who at 127 is pulled in by World Series performance which was excellent in 1905, 1910 and 1911.Due to this reasoning, I'll also keep Waite Hoyt, Herb Pennock and Red Ruffing.

Jesse Haines at 106 is clearly an average pitcher.He in no way belongs in the HOF.

Bob Feller only comes in at 129.Clearly, he was a superior pitcher for a short time.One must give consideration that he lost four peak years due to WW2.

Hal Newhouser who numerically wise comes in as a better picher than Feller had his best seasons during WW2 when many great ballplayers were serving in WW2.Clearly, in this numerical ranking system, he benefited greatly by playing during WW2.

I'll say all the post 1960 pitchers with the exception of Catfish Hunter[too low a number]are deserving.Even with the 20 win seasons, I'd say Hunter benefited from being on good teams as opposed to making them good teams.He was a good but not great pitcher.

Don Drysdale benefited from playing home games at Dodger Stadium during a picher's era. A HOF study shows that he was not a clutch pitcher.His poor performances late season in 1961 and 1962 cost the Dodgers pennants.He was good but not great in World Series play.Still, his score of 128 is close enough and he was a character of the game.Speaking of character's, Nolan Ryan has 27 seasons to choose ten seasons from and clocks in at 126.I'll give him the nod as well but once must realize , he was not one of the 20 greatest pitchers in baseball history.I loved Sandy Koufax as a kid.He had some dominating seasons but ERA era and home ball park adjusted, they were not nearly as great as those of Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez.Koufax did have some great World Series performances during his very short career.Ferguson Jenkins at 126 barely misses numerical wise.He was possibly the most consistent pitcher ever never having an amazingly great season ERA wise but putting in many very good ones.

SP non HOF

Wes Ferrell 1928-1941 123

Lon Warneke 1931-1943 126

Deacon Phillipe 1899-1910 120

Bob Shawkey 1913-1927 113

Milt Pappas 1958-1973 122

Bert Blyleven 1970-1992 136

Greg Maddux 1986-2008 187

Randy Johnson 1989-2009 176

Pedro Martinez 1992-2009 193

Tom Glavine 1987-2008 141

Curt Schilling 1988-2007 143

John Smoltz 1988-2009 136

Roger Clemens 1984-2007 182

Andy Pettitte 1995-2009 123

Mike Mussina 1991-2009 139

Just go by the numbers in these cases.Anyone over 130 belongs I can't make a case for the under 130s except for the post season performance of Andy Pettitte.

Of course some of these pitchers are suspected of using steroids.

note-- Roy Oswalt, Johan Santana, Tim Hudson and Roy Halladay are well on their way to HOF careers.They all need two more productive full seasons.

RP----54 Innings Pitched needed for season

Hoyt Wilhelm 1952-1972 183

Rollie Fingers 1968-1985 153

Goose Gossage 1972-1994 200

Dennis Eckersley 1975-1998 203

Bruce Sutter 1976-1988 160

RP non HOF

Tug McGraw 1965-1984 161

Lee Smith 1980-1997 148

Mariano Rivera 1995-2009 260

Trevor Hoffman 1993-2009 180

Dan Quisenberry 1979-1990 146

John Franco 1984-2005 163

Kent Tekulve 1974-1989 153

Billy Wagner 1995-2009 182

Billy Wagner is based on lifetime record as he only has 9 seasons of 54+ innings.

ERA is a little different for relievers who can come into the middle of innings with runners charged to starters and needing an out or two to complete innings.These eight pitchers are all deserving of HOF status.Eckersley had a few seasons as a good starter as well as a very ridiculously grea t season that skewed his stats.Rivers has had 10 seasons over 200.He is the Babe Ruth of relief pitchers.

Unless someone was left out these are the 12 I want in the HOF.Consistent excellence.

Best hitting